Aircooled Volkswagen Forum banner

41 - 60 of 94 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,004 Posts
Yeah, with a heavy super, you sure want to keep the ccomp and cam durration less radical..Weight will dictate many of the mods you might consider. when you see somebody say Yeah i have this zip zam 1000 cam and it runs great.. make sure you are comparing like for like.. A 2100 maybe 2200 pound SUPER will behave world's apart from a 1750 -1800 pound cal look..Let's take a couple examples.. Baaron surratt runs a show quality Super at Bugo and NASA events with a solid CB performance built 2332.. let's say he and car weigh 2100 pounds. I have seen him run several 105 mph passes in this car. That takes right at 190 hp to accomplish.. if all the stars are in perfect harmony he should run about 12.50 Again I have seen the car run a 12.48 ..Lately i have seen him dial ariound 12.80 so let's use that number.. Now take the same engine and trans and drop it in a lighter car ( don't want to cut up Baaron's beautiful car) Say a gutted all glass all steel beater say you ripped out all the extraneous crap in a 60 someting sedan.. Figure with light weight wheels you can get it down to 1700 with driver..Even with a trans combo that is not ideal for the lighter car you should be looking at time slips of 11.90 at around 112 MPH.. or so.. That is nearly ONE FULL SECOND..and SEVEN miles per... hard to beat lighter weight.. It is easier to make it go quicker and it is much nicer on parts too. That means more fun less mon(ey).. before you launch into a project of this caliber, do some research on what you plan to build.. Ask questions, find out what people with similar weight are running and what they are doing to get there.. 190 hp engines are easy nowdays.. Just a call to a place like CB, Bugpack, or Berg for just three examples, can get you all the parts , pieces and tech help you need to build such a powerhouse.. Or have Pat at CB buuild you one Just like Baaron's.. But in all this foo foo rah, keep one thing in mind.. you can use all the humma humma cranks, rods, headers, trick carbs and cams in the wworld, but if the HEADS are weak you won't make much power.. you can have a head guru do some good heads and you will be happy these guys have been doing this stuff for years .. I won't name names here buytt read up on head porters and you will see certain names keep coming up in posts .. call them and discuss your combination..A good head guy will need to know car weight , gearing tire size etc etc etc.. Or again you can fight an up hill battle and use the heads you have not knowing what you have .. If you plan on using your heads, at the very least get an idea of what you have .. You could flow one or have a head guru look at them .. if thge heads are just a fluff and buff with no real port or chamber work, you could see that potential 190 hp engine making way less .. I have seen combos with a change or two from a brilliant powerplant to a turd .. the wrong cam and or heads can turn 190 in maybe 120 yes ONE HUNDRED TWENTY HORSE POWER .. 70 hp MIA...lucky to get your super into the 14 second zone with that.. and 100 mph...nah.. maybe high eighties.. or a 90 mph run in good air...OR... Call somplace like , CB or DRD or similar and greet some CNC heads into your life... and run around 8.5 compress with a k8 or web cam 86b maybe a CB grind.. all proven power producers..... so.....Good luck ask questions and read...Get a consensous.. Don't just take my word for it..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
322 Posts
This is all good sound advice.

I am well informed as to the chubbiness of my car and the problems that imposes on my ultimate goal of 100 mph at the track.

This started out as an 1835 build that went sideways. It was reported that the engine was a 1835 and in my friends baja. It was pulled out and torn down to find a 1641 with crap pistons and cylinders, 041 heads, and a CW crank that would need to be polished back up.

So the search was on for a new set of P&C's. That is when I found what I truly wanted on craigslist. The items that I listed above for the low low price of $600.

He also has some other items to sell me that include the heads that he has ported on his flow bench, 45 dells with turbo hats, new turbo header for said 2332 that is ceramic coated, custom ground cam for forced induction, an MSD distributor, new set of 94's cut to fit the 90.5 hole, and a dry sump oiling system.

I am going to be buying all of this stuff and selling off the stuff that I don't want or need (it's all pretty much spoken for already but if its is passed over I will post it for sale).

For the time being I will have to run his heads as the budget just got used for an emergency, but I had planned on some well to do heads from one of the big timers in the VW world. But that is now on hold. I have confidence in him that they are good as he is a quality person and is firmly rooted in all makes of performance toys. His current propellant is a 4 seat buggy with a LS-1 and turbo.

I will start looking at the FK-4X series of cams. Are these cams difficult on the lifter bores? I was also looking at the Web 86B.

Thanks for the information as it helps to here from people that actually have used the items I have and not just parrots,


Peter
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,004 Posts
The 40 series cams can make more power, but with all things in life, there are plus and minus columns.. The faster acceleration ramps on the cam will lead to increaseed valve train wera.. you say you want a daily that runs 100 mph.. You can't really get to most places without a road map or tour guide...go with a proven cam like I suggested, or get an aluminum case or your case lifter bores bushed.. this will help the longevity of the lifter bores ..but you will still see reduced valve train life..all the parts have a finite life, and when you are pushing the envelope valve acceleraytion wise.. parts will quit.. If this is trully a daily then don't try to build what don't work.. keep the cam/ compression and gearing conservative or suffer the additional downtime/broken parts/ cost/ inconvenience of you actions...You can spen thousands and thousands of dollars and still end up with a turd that is neither that fast nor that reliable...that OLD saying "cheap fast reliable..pick two" still holds true today .. Unless you have an endless supply of time patience and cash go conservative.. You mentioned turbo.. OMG ..NO! NO! NO! NOT YET!!!! sell those parts get some good heads and advice/ help and build the 2332 with 8 to 1 compression and a120 or k8 or 86b..with your the heads,carbs and weight YOU WILL NOT be happy with much more...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,117 Posts
[email protected] 1915 9.3:1 42x37.5 small oval port 041 castings k8 on 1.4s 48 ida's close ratio box and slicks, always bogged out of the hole. 1600lbs with driver on 89 octane gas. Drove it everywhere
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
322 Posts
MagOO said:
You mentioned turbo.. OMG ..NO! NO! NO! NOT YET!!!! sell those parts get some good heads and advice/ help and build the 2332 with 8 to 1 compression and a120 or k8 or 86b..with your the heads,carbs and weight YOU WILL NOT be happy with much more...
The guy is making me a hell of a deal and those will probablly be sold off or stowed away, I would be a bozo to pass it up as a package.

Yes the heads are going to happen just not right away any more...relative needed bailed out of jail this last weekend. Gonna have to run what he has to offer me. I will try to find more out about the heads this week.

As far as the cam conservative is the key and it sounds as if one of those will be the winner.

This is just the begining of the quest for the 100 mph mark. Once I get this thing all buttoned up I have to bring my other car up to driver spec so it can share daily duties. Its a 1954 Chevy Bel Air on hydraulics. The PO did some poor work to it that I need to address.


2stroke who did your heads? They have to have some tremondous velocity for small ports.
Thanks again.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,004 Posts
Read that second sentence... 1600 pounds with driver .. that means his car weighed about 1580 pounds.. well maybe 1500 even.. Your super ? well add 60 pounds or so for non jockey weight driver, and another 400 or so pounds because supers are heavy .. that 12.80 is now a 13.80-14.00.. weight is the enemy of performance..2 stroke's combo would be fairly easy to replicate..figure on about 145 hp... but not at 2000 plus pounds... yep right back to needing all of that 190 hp we discussed earlier.. and you WILL break stuff... 2 stroke has always had great performances out of his junk...16.0000005 with a 60.00 trashbin 1641..I am always impressed with the little guy's talents... that same basic 1915 combo with a big tickle of nitrous had that thing in the 11 teens at about 117 if i recal.. man you was flyin' that day, Andrew!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I didnt see the part where it said daily driver. In that case, the guys are right. That is going to be tough. You can do it , but it is going to be tough. 100 mph engines require some downtime every once in a while, to freshen the heads up. If it were me, I wouldnt put the engine together until I got the heads ported. You will be disappointed otherwise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Ok. Now I am stoked!! I am building a 2276 fk44 Tims stage II's and 45 dells. This combo is going in a 68 baja with weld wheels, suspension seats , lawnmower battery, etc to cut weight. The tranny is a stock 68 tranny. Any guesses what she will do?? I weigh 230lbs. I can run any size rear tires you guys recommend.
MURZ

[img= width=600 height=450]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/MURZI/testmule/e6c4df4e.jpg[/img]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
217 Posts
so67vw said:
Run what you've got Mike.... It's gonna scoot out just fine.... Just get it done so I don't feel so alone...
I heard that molasses in the winter time runs faster than your bug.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,025 Posts
mbugz60 said:
I heard that molasses in the winter time runs faster than your bug.
Smack talk will get you everywhere.....

This next years is gonna be fun... We will actually have some cars here that will be worth cruis'n with.... I just started out running my clutch and injectors so it seems that some HP is involved (@ only 9 lbs)...

Murz... You need to post your own build page..... I'm sure some of these guys would like to see it... There is much more to that car than black paint and Weld wheels....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
I’ve not read this thread for a while, but having just read parts of it again I have to agree with a lot MagOO has said above. There is much to be said for a light weight car and components if you want to go fast and be reliable. Whilst I accept this conflicts with some people’s desire to have their street cars with all the creature comforts, there is a price to pay for this, which is invariably either speed and or reliability (cost).

MagOO makes another good point beyond the obvious performance advantage which I think is commonly overlooked. The reduced load on the drive train components can also be significant. This means you either need lesser parts, to survive the abuse, or they last longer and possibly both.

I think if your main objective is to go fast, you cant go to far wrong with weight reduction in general and particularly in large revolving parts like tires, wheels, drums disc’s hub’s, flywheels ring gear etc.

If you are sticking with relatively low torque producing N/A motors as well, you can certainly reduce the weight of many of the standard and aftermarket components, without sacrificing reliability, and getting useful performance gains. Other than the time taken to do it, and the cost of tooling / machining and the like, its free performance.

So with the Christmas holidays approaching get your drill’s grinders at the ready and shed some pounds! Mind you it’s the drivers that normally need to go on a diet post Christmas not the cars!

Peter
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
322 Posts
Its been a while since I have revisited this thread as I have been busy with all things.

With my last post I mentioned that I was going to receive a set of heads that were ported by the previous owner. I got a hold of them and they were ported the whole way and had the chambers completely worked over. They looked nice, for a turbo as there wasn't much in the way of quench pads left. So I sold them to a friend that is going turbo.

I am going to be putting my dollars to a set of Tims stage 2's for my car. I will also ship my manifolds to them so they can be match ported all the way up.

I was given a FK7 cam for the engine but with all of the reading I have done here and there and everywhere, it would be small for the 2332 that I am building. I have been looking at the FK8 or Web 86b as I really don't want to ship the case out for work, unless I need to.

To recap:
Engine will be 2332 with a Rancho Pro street with 4:12 R&P with stock gearing.
Scat 84mm crank, Scat 5.5 H-beam rods, 94mm Mahle P&C, Tims Stage 2 Heads (or equivalent), unsure of which cam, Dellorto 45's, 1-5/8 header.

Should I run a lightened flywheel or not?
That is another question I have as I have to purchase a new one to go with the 8 doweled crank and then have the assembly rebalanced.

Dont get me wrong I know my car is heavy and 100 mph in the quarter is my ultimate goal at whatever ET that comes in at, this is just the first step to that goal.

I have come here to ask and learn from those who have done it before me and learn from your efforts what works and what doesn't.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,004 Posts
Ok, I guess we are back to what works and what don't.. you are gonna need about 1 horsepower for every 12-13 pounds to go 100 MPH...So if you take say, 2200 pounds, and figure you need at least 175 HP to reach the 100 mph goal. what do the heads flow? you need to flow enough to make a minuimum of 175-180 HP.. If they flow less you make less and run slower... the power is in t5he heads.. If your heads are weak the HP ain't there. Pure and simple.. No magic to it, no mystery around it.. Plain simple fact... Ebverything else you put on an engine is designed to either increase torque/HP or reduce the losses inherent .. so you need a good set up carbs to flow the air needed by the heads.. Now I ain't sayin' you can't make good power with 45 Dells, but I don't think you will make 180.. A set of 48 IDAs, or even Dells or IDFs can flow more.. I once ran a mild1776 (107-110hp) with 45 Dells that picked up both ET and MPH by going to IDAs.. If a weak ass 1776 can gain, think what a 2276-2332 can pick up.. Just sayin'.. Now the Header, Well ya know, in your case a 1 5/8, may, again,, MAY be a good thing it MAY help build power where it is needed in a pig heavy car.. .So there ya have it.. A stock geared car is gonna struggle for ET, but if the century mark is your goal, you just may make it with a well thought out combo and good street tires.. Don't put slicks on it.. that won't help the MPH in your case.. Go back and re read the posts on this thread..Pay particular attention to what I said about Barron's Super Bettle combo and then ask yourself if a 95-97 mph car would satisfy you...Because a 2200 pound car that runs 14.20s at about 95 MPH would take about 150 HP.. and that may be possible with your proposed combo.. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to spend?
 
41 - 60 of 94 Posts
Top