Aircooled Volkswagen Forum banner

1 - 9 of 9 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,342 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I want to hear some results from those who have used the Wiseco narrow ring 94mm piston. This one has a 1mm x 1.2mm x 2.8mm ring set. Are they performing well, and have you done leakdown testing to see how well they are sealing?

Here's the background. I used to run the other style Wiseco with the tractor ring set. (2 x 2 x 4) and I used a C&A ***** ring with a spacer in the top groove. These worked well and made good power. Upon re-ordering a set of rings, waiting 8 weeks, then pretty much getting told by C&A to get screwed. Went to the AA slipper skirt bought from CB. Had the barrels honed before even running them to get the proper clearance. No conventional ring would seal due to the excessive end gap the larger bore caused. Taking Pat Downs advice, I put in a total seal gapless top ring and drilled eight .040" gas ports that came in at the back of the groove. Sealed up tight and made REALLY good power. I have about 200 runs on those. Later, bugged by the reputation of said AAs, I bought a set of gas ported JEs with the 1 x 1.2 x2.8 ring set. They did not seal as well, making less power. Tried another set of rings without getting any improvement. Ordered another set of JEs with 1.5 X 2 X 4mm ring grooves. Due to circumstanced outside my control, these were not delivered on time and after 3 months, I gave up on those.
The CPs I got from Autocraft use a ***** top ring and a 1/16" second ring. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be able to take the abuse! Add to that, the second ring is an odd size that is not a stock item.

I contacted Wiseco to see about a 1.5 X 2 X 4mm ring groove piston and was told I must be doing something wrong for that ring set not to seal. "We've had zero issues with that ring package." (Heard THAT line before!) They will make the pistons with the grooves I want....for $600 a set and tell me I'm foolish for wanting that. Too pricey for that quality level of piston in my mind.

Bottom line is I want to get some feedback. Am I doing something wrong? Does this combo work for those who are using it??

I'm reluctant too spend more money on something I haven't had good results with. Getting an off the shelf piston other than AA with the grooves I want seems to be an exercise in futility.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Mike, I am going to start this reply off with the statement "...I have absolutely zero experinece with the combination of parts you have described above."

With that said, let me offer some food for thought.

Were the cylinders you ran the JE piston/ring package in prepped the way the manufacturer recommended?

Are the rings compatible with the composition and hardness the particular cylinders are made from?

Were the cylinders freshly honed for the correct size and Ra for the rings being used? If so, with torque plates?

Was the engine broken in using the ring manufacturers suggested procedure?

You mentioned the JE's were gas ported. Was the ring pack you used designed to take advantage of gas porting? I.E. low-ultra low radial tension

Is the actual measured ring to ring groove clearance as specified by the ring manufacturer?

From what I read about your performance on the various web pages...it is obvious you are on your game. I only asked the above questions to try and shake out a solution, not to offend you.

I wish you luck with your quest.

Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,342 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Rob
Some assumption have to made here. The barrels were new, checked for size and roundness with a bore gage as well as piston to bore clearance.
The first set of rings were supplied with the pistons which were ordered WITH gas ports. As such, one would have to "ass-ume" that the manufacturer would supply rings compatible with the pistons as ordered. I simply checked the ring to groove with a feeler gage, filed the gaps to the specified dimension, cleaned the cylinders squeeky clean, and used total seal's break-in powder on 'em. Since the typical consumer does not have ability to check hardnesses, gage surface finish on barrels, the manufacturer must supply parts to work within the typical range. To supply parts that only work with a certain criteria would be an invitation to a LOT of come-backs.

Granted, I must assume some liability based on the limitations I have. I believe I take as much care as anyone when assembling an engine. Maybe not as much as some, but certainly more care than the vast majority.

I'm not bashing anyone here. Simply reporting what worked and what did not, and trying to find out what others have experienced with something I am considering.

Besides, I'm simply asking about the Wiseco as I am considering a purchase. What has not worked in past, simply has not worked and I've moved on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,244 Posts
Mike, The ring package we had designed into our Wiseco's are working very well for me. The biggest advantage to our pistons is the Napier 2nd ring. This ring has superior oil control over any other ring. Another issue I see with ring seal is end gaps and piston to cylinder clearance. IMO, it is better to set your end gaps up at .006 per inch of bore size for the top ring and .005 for the second. Too many people get tied up in loosing compression with wide end gaps and end up with their rings "butting" up. I like to see .004-.005 piston to cylinder clearance with our Wiseco's. Since you run methonal, I would set up the clearance at .005
Pat
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,117 Posts
when i had wisecos in my turbo car it needed big wall clearance, probably alot more heat in my setup than yours though.

I'm with pat, big end gaps in the rings too!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,002 Posts
I have only run Wiseco. I like the wiseco locamotive 2x2x4. I use the wiseco rings with a total seal 2nd. end gap on 94mm at 14 to 20thou, leak down is at 1 to 3 percent with optimum oil control.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,068 Posts
Mike, I have had very little experiance with Wiseco VW pistons. I have how ever used the crap out of them in my 400 Honda EX quad. I am running total seal rings and discovered something by mistake. When i honed the cylinder I crabbed the wrong grit stone I ended up with a courser stone than they(manufacturer) recomended. The rings sealed up very nicely and after 28 hours of runtime I had 3-4% leak down. Just my experiance with wiseco and total seal.

In my VW motors I run nothing but JE pistons.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I want to hear some results from those who have used the Wiseco narrow ring 94mm piston. This one has a 1mm x 1.2mm x 2.8mm ring set. Are they performing well, and have you done leakdown testing to see how well they are sealing?

Here's the background. I used to run the other style Wiseco with the tractor ring set. (2 x 2 x 4) and I used a C&A * ring with a spacer in the top groove. These worked well and made good power. Upon re-ordering a set of rings, waiting 8 weeks, then pretty much getting told by C&A to get screwed. Went to the AA slipper skirt bought from CB. Had the barrels honed before even running them to get the proper clearance. No conventional ring would seal due to the excessive end gap the larger bore caused. Taking Pat Downs advice, I put in a total seal gapless top ring and drilled eight .040" gas ports that came in at the back of the groove. Sealed up tight and made REALLY good power. I have about 200 runs on those. Later, bugged by the reputation of said AAs, I bought a set of gas ported JEs with the 1 x 1.2 x2.8 ring set. They did not seal as well, making less power. Tried another set of rings without getting any improvement. Ordered another set of JEs with 1.5 X 2 X 4mm ring grooves. Due to circumstanced outside my control, these were not delivered on time and after 3 months, I gave up on those.
The CPs I got from Autocraft use a * top ring and a 1/16" second ring. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be able to take the abuse! Add to that, the second ring is an odd size that is not a stock item.

I contacted Wiseco to see about a 1.5 X 2 X 4mm ring groove piston and was told I must be doing something wrong for that ring set not to seal. "We've had zero issues with that ring package." (Heard THAT line before!) They will make the pistons with the grooves I want....for $600 a set and tell me I'm foolish for wanting that. Too pricey for that quality level of piston in my mind.

Bottom line is I want to get some feedback. Am I doing something wrong? Does this combo work for those who are using it??

I'm reluctant too spend more money on something I haven't had good results with. Getting an off the shelf piston other than AA with the grooves I want seems to be an exercise in futility.
I use that setup in my 2276çc Class-12 desert car. Most important thing..."Don't undersize the ring-end gap!!!!" Air cooled race motors produce lots of heat, so lean bigger on the end-gap scale. When in doubt, use the turbo sizing. Good luck.
 
1 - 9 of 9 Posts
Top